Once in a blue moon, you see someone who looks vaguely like you, or shares your sexual orientation. Maybe the character will be both and you will have a twofer token minority. The audience, especially straight/white LGBT/POC allies, fall all over themselves to congratulate the show or the film or the comic for almost getting there. Baby steps, they chant. Baby steps. We’ll be there, soon, but in the meantime this will suffice, what more can you expect, isn’t it good enough that they’re trying.
You know what? Almost isn’t good enough. Not by a long shot.
To be sure, I’m not speaking for anyone else. I’m a non-straight Asian woman, but I realize that for others that the little bit of inclusion is better than total absence, utter silence. And sometimes, I even agree. Sometimes “almost” is–just very, very barely–enough.
For me, though, most of the time it isn’t. I’m talking about tokenism, and a very particular brand of it. TVTropes suggests:
Token Minority is a character designed to get more minority groups into the plot. This serves several purposes:
- Allows the producers of the show to broaden the appeal of the show by giving more viewers protagonists they can identify with.
- Is useful for bringing in discussions of racial issues, gender issues or homophobia into the plot.
- Helps the producers feel a little better about using a Scary Minority Suspect in every other case.
- Allows the producers to make race jokes related to minority without any shame
- Allows the producers to avoid criticism from minority groups.
- Fulfills the executives’ desire for the show to be more ethnically respectful.
For the purpose of this discussion, I’m addressing 2, 3, 4 and to a lesser extent 5 (depending on whether “ethnically respectful” is a sincere motive or just there for good PR). It’s what I like to call the “ally brownie points” syndrome, also known as “Fear not, ladies! I am Joss Whedon, Minority Warrior!” It’s exactly what it sounds like: this is what happens when the author/developer/filmmaker (or the executives), usually cis and white and male, throws in a member of a minority in a self-congratulatory circle-jerk. The token minority is not likely to be a protagonist; no meaningful narrative or engagement with oppression and prejudice will be told. Or it’s a result of a curse or magic, as has been pointed out by Raz regarding a trans character in Maria Snyder’s Poison Study.
Harry Potter
Harry Potter deserves an entire anthology of essays dedicated to calling it out for all kinds of terrible shit. The series is a cesspit rife with all the problems you’d expect an exceptionally ignorant cis white woman to introduce, banging away at the keyboard in oblivious bliss.
There’s a grand total of one (1) character in HP who looks anything remotely like me: Cho Chang.1 She is, in fact, the single character of color who has more than five lines of dialogue to her name. What do we know about her? She is Cedric’s love interest and the object of Harry’s desire. Harry then sort of inherits her from Cedric, much like you’d inherit a tea set from dear old grandmother. Cho has no agency, no personality, no purpose except to be the boys’ love interest: the oriental woman defined solely through the white male gaze. She, and characters like her, are testament to why the Bechdel Test needs to exist.
[1] And… “Cho”? Care to write that in Chinese for us, Ms Rowling? Bet you can’t. Here’s a tip, Ms Lazy Hack, that’s not a real name.
HARRY: Look, let’s not talk about Cedric right now…let’s talk about something else.
CHO: I thought, I thought you’d u-u-understand! I need to talk about it! Surely you n-need to talk about it too! I mean, you saw it happen, d-didn’t you?
HARRY: Well – I have talked about it, to Ron and Hermione, but -
CHO: Oh, you’ll talk to Hermione Granger! But you won’t talk to me! P-perhaps it would be best if we just…just p-paid and you went and met up with Hermione G-Granger, like you obviously want to!
She’s a wreck, a stereotype of the vacillating, emotionally codependent woman who can’t let go of her deceased love nor properly “appreciate” her current one. Does anyone point out that Harry is being unreasonable and a dick for not wanting to talk about Cedric with, you know, Cedric’s girlfriend? No. It’s all Cho’s fault for being such a clingy little girl, and look, isn’t she hysterical and obnoxiously jealous to boot? The relationship disintegrates, and Harry happily discards her in great relief, the better to free himself for his true love Ginny Weasley.2
[2] On which note, you know how both Ginny and Harry dated POC before finally settling down with their destined, white true loves? Yeah. Don’t forget the brief episode with the Patil twins. Did I mention “Padma” and “Pavarti” are also very stereotypical names? But hey, unlike Cho’s, at least theirs aren’t gibberish.
The shit-cherry on this enormous turdcake, though, is Dumbledore.
I had always seen Dumbledore as gay, but in a sense that’s not a big deal… He’s an innately good man, what would make him do that. I didn’t even think it through that way, it just seemed to come to me, I thought ‘I know why he did it, he fell in love.’ And whether they physically consummated this infatuation or not is not the issue. The issue is love. It’s not about sex. So that’s what I knew about Dumbledore. And it’s relevant only in so much as he fell in love and was made an utter fool of by love. He lost his moral compass completely when he fell in love and I think subsequently became very mistrusting of his own judgment in those matters so became quite asexual. He led a celibate and bookish life.
It’s a Minority Warrior at her most self-congratulatory and smug, tongue lolling out and paw extended for her ally brownie points. Of course a character’s homosexuality isn’t a big deal to a woman with straight privilege; she’s never been subjected to homophobia, so it’s simple to brush gayness off as “no big deal.” What Rowling desperately, desperately would like you to believe here is that she’s the best LGBT ally, ever. She’s sexuality-blind, do you see? Her characters’ sexualities are just incidental, it’s more important that they are good people. She’s so enlightened rainbows spill out her ears. It’s about the love, not the sex. Isn’t it? Don’t gay people just hold hands and kiss? Isn’t that what homosexual love is supposed to be like? Have I used the word “love” enough for it to lose all meaning yet?
Rowling is deathly scared of the buttsex. This isn’t a nod toward romantic asexuals,3 because Rowling insists so loudly that Dumbledore is gay, gay, do you hear? She doesn’t disclose whether Dumbledore and Grindelwald ever fucked–sorry, “physically consummated this infatuation,” in true Victorian style–because she doesn’t want to consider the idea that her one gay character might have a libido. We are talking about a man who, after his one romance went wrong at the age of eighteen, spends the rest of his two centuries celibate. Rowling is definite on this, as she refuses to be definite on whether Dumbledore has ever had intercourse with another man. Dumbledore’s sexuality, then, isn’t a sign of her progressiveness. It’s thinly veiled homophobia coming from an intellectually cowardly straight woman. Naturally, Dumbledore’s sexuality never enters into the actual text of the series. There’s not the faintest suggestion, the most indirect hint. Not even Rita Skeeter brings it up in her scandalous tell-all “biography,” which is exactly where you’d expect it to come up. Even if the wizarding culture isn’t homophobic, does anyone honestly believe Rita’d have missed out on the chance to expose Dumbledore’s infatuation with the Dark Lord of his time?
[3] Also? The idea that you “turn” asexual because your one puppy love went wrong? Yeah about that.
The Exotic Other
Oree Shoth, protagonist of NK Jemisin’s The Broken Kingdoms, is blind. Except… she’s not. Oree lives in Shadow, a city so full of magic that everything–to her inner eye–glows. She can read without braille, she can see her own paintings perfectly, and she barely needs a stick to feel her way about. So amazing is her special sight that she can sense people’s emotions and perceive their hair and eye colors. In essence, while she is in Shadow–where the entire book takes place barring the last chapter and flashbacks–she is sighted.
You must understand. I have always been able to see magic, but Nimaro had been mostly dark to me until then. It was a placid land of sleepy little towns and villages, of which mine was no exception. Magic was a thing of the cities. I got to see it only every once in a while, and then always in secret.
But now there was light and color. It burst across the ground and the street, traced up every leaf and blade of grass and paving stone and wooden slat around the front yard. So much! I had never realized there was so much to the world, right there around me. The magic washed the walls with texture and lines so that for the first time in my life, I could see the house where I’d been born. It outlined the trees around me and the old horse cart around the side of the house—I couldn’t figure out what that was at first—and the people who stood in the street with mouths hanging open. I saw it all—truly saw, as others did. Maybe more than they did, I don’t know.
“Truly saw, as others did,” indeed. What is she supposed to be, or do? To convey that Exoticization is Bad, Jemisin insists. Except that point falls flat on its face–admittedly Jemisin was focusing on race rather than disability, but even so: what is Oree’s blindness if not a cosmetic trait that exists to merely exoticize her? The story would have lost nothing if she’d been sighted, and in any case everything seen through her perspective contains little to differentiate it from that of a sighted character. In her article on Storm, RVCBard linked Trinity: The Black Fantasy, where it’s pointed out that Storm as handled by Marvel is a meaningless fantasy, a black woman who’s not truly black, with the bluest eyes, the straightest white hair: too perfect, too special, to provide comfort because she’s everything real black women can never be. Oree, then, suggests a similar picture. She is not consolatory, for real-life disability isn’t going to go away with a snap of the finger (or magic coming back to the world), and currently seeing aids are expensive and imperfect. It’s not even enough that she’s blind–her deformed cornea (“many narrow, delicate fingers of grayish tissue, layered tight over one another like the petals of a daisy yet to bloom”) are a mark of her part-divine heritage. They unfurl when she realizes her magic, like… a blooming daisy, I guess.
Oree’s blindness is, incidentally, allegorical to growing up a geeky black girl:
It’s just that there tends to be a lot of obvious similarity when you compare the struggles of any oppressed groups, IMO. I wrote Oree from my own experience of being a geeky black girl**, who often herself felt constrained and threatened by destructive cultural pressures that have a complex genesis.
“Oree’s a fighter,” Jemisin goes on blithely. That’s nice. I do understand what she’s getting at, but the juxtaposition with Oree’s specialness is troublesome. It’s such a shame that real blind people will never have magic sight however hard they fight, isn’t it? I’d also like to go on a limb and suggest that being black and geeky isn’t quite the same as being blind, and comparing the two strikes me as very off. Especially geeky. Can we not go there?
Then there is Southern Vampire Mystery, the ugly progenitor of the TV show True Blood. Others may describe the books as something to do with redneck vampires and a telepath. I describe it as a long series of Charlaine Harris dropping her pants and showing her white racist ass to the world, over and over.
Eric Northman, a Germanic vampire, owns a vampire bar called Fangtasia. Throughout the series, he hires “exotic” vampires to tend his bar to draw in customers. For many of the books, that’s—yep—vampires of color: a Native American called Long Shadow, who dies in the same book he’s introduced after Eric finds out he embezzles, and a Japanese called Chow.4
[4] Again, what the everloving fuck? “Chow”? Is it that hard to find a weeaboo to consult or even google up male Japanese names, Charlaine Harris? Yeah it’s implied to be his nickname, but it doesn’t even sound vaguely Japanese.
Eric came in, along with a vampire I knew must be Chow. Right away I could see why Chow would bring in customers. He was the first Asian vampire I’d seen, and he was extremely handsome. He was also covered—at least the parts I could see—with that intricate tattooing that I’d heard members of the Yakuza favored. Whether Chow had been a gangster when he was human or not, he was certainly sinister now.
He’s also noted as being “tall for an Asian.” Which is funny, since there are Japanese men who are over 180 cm, and even at home I see girls who are approaching or over 170 cm. Sorry, white people, you haven’t towered over us for at least a generation.
“It was truly my pleasure,” said Chow, with an unmistakable leer in his voice. He had a trace of an accent, but I don’t have enough experience with the different characteristics of the many strains of Asians to tell you where he came from originally. I am sure “Chow” was not his complete name, either, but it was all the other vampires called him. “It would have been perfect, without the poison.”
Many strains of Asians, dear me. It’s like we aren’t even people. The above quote is said after a group of vampires have sucked out Sookie’s poisoned blood. So, we have got a leering, “sinister” Asian man with just enough handsome to invoke yellow fever (but not really—Sookie only lusts after white men). He’s scary and a sexual threat, because we all know men of color want to rape white women. Descriptions are vague, because Harris is just as ignorant as Sookie about Asia; somehow, despite noticing that he sports yakuza tattoos, neither author nor character makes the vast leap of logic to conclude that he is Japanese. Maybe they think “yakuza” is Asian for gangsters or something.
It won’t surprise you, I am sure, that Chow bites the dust within a few books. As does the cook at Sookie’s workplace, a flamboyantly, stereotypically gay black man. He was also raped before his murder, if that’s not enough. He’s replaced by Callie, a black woman:
It could be that Callie was so sharp-edged because she was old enough to remember the bad old days when blacks and whites had different schools, different waiting rooms, different water fountains. I didn’t remember any of those things, and I was not willing to take into account Callie’s bundle of baggage every time I talked to her.
Emphasis mine. Privileged shitstain, right here. Had enough yet? There’s more where that came from in All Together Dead:
We were faced with a long counter extending the length of the opposite wall. There was a woman about my age behind the counter, with coppery hair and skin, the product of an interesting racial blend. She’d dyed her eyebrows black, which added a touch of the bizarre to the whole uni-color effect.
This “racial blend” dies a few pages later.
Rasul was deeply brown, quite naturally, and had the large, dark liquid eyes and black hair of someone from the Middle East.
“I knew you were supposed to be here, so it’s nice to run into you,” I said.
“She sent Carla and me ahead of time,” he said lightly in his exotic accent.
Exotic! Brown! Haw haw.
By that time I was ducking into the ladies’ room… There was an attendant, a nicety I’d never seen before though I’d read about it in books. I was supposed to tip her. I still had my little evening purse with my room key in it, and I was relieved to recall I’d slipped a few dollars in there, along with some tissues and breath mints and a tiny brush. I nodded to the attendant, a squatty, dark-skinned woman with an unhappy face.
I took care of business in the nice clean stall and then emerged to wash my hands and to try to smooth out my hair. The attendant, wearing a name tag that read “Lena,” turned on the water for me, which kind of weirded me out. I mean, I can turn a faucet. But I washed my hands and used the towel she extended to me, figuring this was the routine and I shouldn’t act ignorant. I dropped two dollars in the tip bowl, and she tried to smile at me, but she looked too unhappy to manage it. She must be having a bad night.
Again, bolding mine. What is this even. Maybe Lena has just as much “baggage” as Callie, and dear Sookie here isn’t going to have any of it. Gosh, those blacks and their racial baggage. It’s not just that Sookie is a nasty bigot; her attitude is never challenged throughout the text. Her racism is there to stay, and Harris is happy to aid and abet it along.
Through Dumbledore’s homosexuality and Cho Chang’s entire character, Harris’ characters of color and Oree’s blindness, the authors get their cake and eat it too. Inclusion without effort, inclusion without meaning. Again, I’m speaking only for myself so I can’t talk about homosexual or disabled characters, but by “including” Cho Chang, Padma and Parvati Patil, Chow and Callie—numerous characters of color who nevertheless have no significant role in the primary narrative, who exist merely to decorate and accessorize—the author acknowledges that, yes, they’re there. But guess what, they aren’t good enough. They don’t get to do anything, barely have a voice to speak with. In short, they might as well not exist. And we’re back to people of color being erased, silenced, reduced to props for white drama.
White authors, I’m not grateful that you deigned to include people who look remotely like me only to treat them like shit and kill them off. I don’t have to take it and like it. In fact, you’re being racist assholes and you will not get brownie points except from neo-conservatives and other bigots.
Next stop: white people with pointy ears and why it’s not always a super idea to use fantasy/sci-fi races as analogues for real-world minorities.
Inclusion without effort, inclusion without meaning.
That’s pretty much it for me in a nutshell.
Another excellent post, making me quite glad I’ve never become the least bit interested in True Blood, among other things.
I like True Blood, but I watch it for Pam and Lafayette.
Reasonable; given I don’t find vampires very interesting anyway, I’ll probably stick with Whedon’s tokenism, rather than investing time in Harris’.
Oh, and try hard not to think about why there aren’t any Asian people in the superspecial combined future of America the Awesome and China the Invisible. Usually without success.
Oh, and try hard not to think about why there aren’t any Asian people in the superspecial combined future of America the Awesome and China the Invisible. Usually without success.
Stop using your brain! That’s how they try to kill you!
Oh, is this what River means when she says “I can kill you with my brain”? Badum-tish.
But, but Simon and River have a Chinese surname! Doesn’t that count???
Supposedly it’s much better than the books it is based on, though that can’t take very much.
Re: Harry Potter
Right the fuck on! Retconning teh gay =/= progress.
Naming characters of color =/= progress.
Especially since teh gay and teh minoriteez are just mentioned in passing most of the time, as if to say, “See! There are brown people at Hogwarts! Now let me get back to my Great White Hero!”
So Dumbledore is an innately good man, but he has dark, dark, urges and these urges are gay, they lead him astray. towards evil. So, because his first love went wrong, he spent 200 years alone, never daring to love again, never daring to have a quick casual fuck, just alone. And this is meant to be a healthy example, a role model for people to look up to, someone to point at and go “oh JK Rowling is so enlightened?”
I don’t get it. I’m admittedly unfamiliar with Harry Potter in anything but the vaguest awareness that it exists. I was aware that Dumbledore came out of the closet, but it was okay, he was safe, he was one of those gays that don’t actually have sex, like Will from Will and Grace.
I thought it was an absolutely excellent article, even if I’m unaware of the source material.
he was one of those gays that don’t actually have sex
He also dies very nobly in an almost fashionable way – as all teh gayz should!
Oh, hah. I didn’t even get around to addressing that but yeah. The only gay character in the series? Is also dead. It’s like the more you look at HP, the more AHH WHAT you find.
(Also: the guy who’s implied to have had ~relations~ with goats is more sexually visible than Dumbledore. Yay.)
Daniel Hemmens dissected that in more detail than I did: it’s like, in the entire series, the power of love is always shown as good, pure, and redemptive. A mother’s love, a friend’s love, heterosexual love. Literally Voldemort is this Big Bad because he’s a psychopath, was not conceived in a union of love, and love is the power that the Dark Lord knows not. Harry’s mom magically protected him with her love and self-sacrifice, Harry magically protects ALL of his school with ditto.
Dumbledore’s is the only case where someone is “made a fool of by love.”
(Thank you!)
I went to read that I posted and it was an interesting read. Thanks for sharing the link.
Hmm. I don’t normally respond to critiques of my texts, but okay, I’ll bite here. Got stuff to work on, and I’m in procrastination mode.
First off, your critique of Oree’s “specialness” diluting the representative value of her blindness is completely valid. I realized that after the book was written, when I attended a great workshop at the 2010 Readercon (by kestrell on LJ, since I see you’re there) on what SF/F writers usually screw up re representations of blindness — and lo and behold, I’d nailed the first one, the blind girl with “special” sight. D’oh. Was too late to fix the book at that point — though if it hadn’t been, the “fix” I would’ve inserted would’ve simply been to unlink Oree’s magic from her eyes. I would’ve made her more like her father, expressing her magic solely via her art, and otherwise changed nothing else.*
Because despite what you say in your OP, Oree’s blindness is very much a detriment; I worked hard to make that clear. You say she barely needs a stick, but that’s simply not true. She falls/gets hurt, is rendered helpless (especially by people trying to hinder her), or is forced to crawl or have a human guide on the multiple occasions when she’s deprived of her stick in the book, except when she’s in locations she knows well, like her own house. She says herself that her ability to see magic doesn’t ease the impact of her disability much. She’s still had to struggle to survive, with the added fear of ending up among the homeless (many of whom are blind, she knows) looming large as a threat in her life. She can read, but only when the words are written with magical characters or in magical substances — like divine pee, yeah — and she can’t read the magical characters (godwords), because she’s never learned how. Otherwise it’s explicitly stated in the book that she has to have people read to her. The only times she’s anywhere near “sighted” are when she’s literally surrounded by magic on all sides: the two chapters set in Sky near the end, and the prologue of the book wherein the whole world is washed with magic for a few minutes. Even then, she’s impaired because she simply doesn’t understand what she’s seeing — c.f. her confusion about the horse cart, in the passage you cited — though she can sometimes reason it out. That takes time and real effort for her. So it’s a bit disingenuous of you to suggest that Oree’s blindness is merely cosmetic.
Likewise, it’s disingenuous of you to take me to task for using Oree’s blindness as an allegory for geeky blackness, because I don’t. In the linked post I specifically compare being a black geek to being an areligious nonconformist from a conservative small town. Of course Oree’s blindness plays a factor in how she’s treated, as do her race and gender, but the specialness I’m referring to throughout the post is being an artist, with a lesser component of being magic** thrown in for flavor. I specifically make the point, both in that post and in the book, that Oree’s (not blind) father was the same as her; he just didn’t manage to escape.
Unfortunately, you’ve made other, similar errors elsewhere in your analysis, I note — in fact, Hermione does point out, several times, that Harry is being an unreasonable dick to Cho on the Cedric issue, for example — and it’s unfortunate, because they destroy what I think would’ve been an interesting post. It’s hard for me to trust your points about works I haven’t read (the Southern Vampire one) when you’re playing such games with the ones I do know. And you don’t really need to do that. There are plenty of problems with all the works you’ve noted, mine included. You don’t need to mischaracterize what’s there, or attribute thoughts to the authors that you can’t possibly know***, in order to get your point across.
OK, back to work.
*I really, really don’t agree with your implication that I could’ve/should’ve written Oree as sighted, because it smacks of the whole “you need a reason to have a [pick a status: black person/blind person/woman] in the story” ideology. You don’t need a reason to have any kind of non-majority character in a story, and you don’t need to hinge the plot on their non-majorityness to give that status value. Seriously, I would think, given the thoughtfulness in the rest of your post, that you would see the problem with this kind of assertion.
**By this point in the series I thought it would be clear that I’m constructing magic — the inheritance, appropriation, control, or lack thereof — as a social status a la race. But I guess so many people are obsessed with the fact that my trilogy and Christopher Paolini’s have the same name that they don’t think about why mine’s called “the Inheritance Trilogy”.
***Again Rowling; how, exactly, do you conclude that she’s “deathly scared of” gay sex? You do have a good point about her being definitive on his celibacy while refusing to be definitive about his relationship with Grindelwald. But that doesn’t translate into homophobia because she’s not definitive about anybody’s sexuality, except where there are children to confirm that Sex Happened. I’m not saying you’re wrong, note. I agree that there’s something wrong with the way Rowling handled Dumbledore. But you’re so busy calling her elaborate names that you’ve kinda failed to make your point.
“So it’s a bit disingenuous of you to suggest that Oree’s blindness is merely cosmetic.”
I stand corrected. On the other hand, if I took most of the descriptions seen from Oree’s eye out of context and showed it to somebody not familiar with the novel, much of the time it’d be impossible to tell that this is a blind character (I’m still puzzled as to how she can see Itempas when he’s not being magical and shit, i.e. when he’s effectively a mere mortal). I’ve got the epub here with me; I can pick out examples for you, if you like.
“in fact, Hermione does point out, several times, that Harry is being an unreasonable dick to Cho on the Cedric issue, for example”
You mean the part that ends with “just because you’ve got the emotional range of a teaspoon”? Because I don’t feel Hermione’s castigating Harry. Yeah, she’s peeved, but I felt all she really does is call further attention to how emotionally, how much a wreck, and how broken Cho is. The “said nastily” that comes at the end feels almost… token. YMMV.
“In the linked post I specifically compare being a black geek to being an areligious nonconformist from a conservative small town. ”
Your post sez: “I didn’t construct Oree’s life and struggle against constraints as a parable of queerness, note; far from it. It’s just that there tends to be a lot of obvious similarity when you compare the struggles of any oppressed groups, IMO… I’m sure there are a lot of real-world situations that can match Oree’s experience — including her own geeky-Maro-girl issues; the struggles of the disabled in a society that actively discriminates and passively devalues them on a constant basis; and the struggles of any poor person to pursue self-actualization while trying to scrape together the monthly rent.”
So, uh, yeah. Can you see why I didn’t quite take away from that what you specifically, precisely meant? Especially the “when you compare the struggles of any oppressed groups” part?
“It’s hard for me to trust your points about works I haven’t read (the Southern Vampire one) when you’re playing such games with the ones I do know.”
Yeah, I totally misquoted texts I copy-pasted verbatim from Harris’ books that run along the line of “lol Asian straaaains exotic yakuza dude.” Please realize how irksome it is that you’re accusing me of playing games with *that.* I don’t want or need your trust, thank fuck, and if you think it’ll make others mistrust me, really don’t be concerned on my behalf.
“I really, really don’t agree with your implication that I could’ve/should’ve written Oree as sighted, because it smacks of the whole “you need a reason to have a [pick a status: black person/blind person/woman] in the story” ideology.”
Far be it from me to insist what authors *should* and shouldn’t do. On the other hand, since I gather from your blog that you did want to make a point, the fact that you didn’t make that point very well re: blindness made me think maybe you probably tried a little too hard. That’s the gist of my post, actually (though again: more POC/non-straight people than disabled characters, since it’s not any place of mine to talk about disability except in the most general calling-out). I’d love to hear how disabled folks feel about the “X is disabled except not really because magic” trope, really, because here I’m playing Minority Warrior myself.
“But that doesn’t translate into homophobia because she’s not definitive about anybody’s sexuality, except where there are children to confirm that Sex Happened.”
Now you’re being disingenuous. Many of the major characters have kids; the main trio in particular certainly do (as did, obviously, their parents). That’s a lot more confirmation of straight people having fucked than a vague note about Dumbledore’s maybe/maybe-not. Even setting aside that, there’s the glaring fact that Dumbledore’s sexual orientation is not supported in any way, shape, or form within the text. It’s excluded entirely. Combine that with Rowling insisting it’s alllll about love damn it not the physical act, and I’m going to go “hmmmmmm” a lot. What do you think completely desexualizing a gay character constitutes, if not homophobia? Not snarky, an honest question.
I stand corrected. On the other hand, if I took most of the descriptions seen from Oree’s eye out of context and showed it to somebody not familiar with the novel, much of the time it’d be impossible to tell that this is a blind character (I’m still puzzled as to how she can see Itempas when he’s not being magical and shit, i.e. when he’s effectively a mere mortal). I’ve got the epub here with me; I can pick out examples for you, if you like.
If you take anything out of context, you can make it back up any assertions you like. That doesn’t mean the decontextualized statement actually does support your assertions; it just means you’re playing rhetorical games in an attempt to win an argument. If your argument is strong enough on its own merits, you shouldn’t need to do that.
At no point did Oree see Shiny when he wasn’t “being magical”, per the “rules” of his power. Cite as many lines from the book as you like; I’ll simply point out the context that explains why Shiny was glowing at that point. And the lines in which Oree sees magic read like she’s sighted because, hello, she is sighted in those instances, though she’s completely blind for the vast majority of the book. She uses the language of sighted people because she’s been raised in a mostly-sighted society and visual things have social associations. Even blind people know that blood is red, the ocean is blue, frex, because they’ve spent their lives immersed in the poetry, etc., of sighted people. They can reason it out. Read accounts by blind people who are partially or occasionally sighted — and note that these people are still impaired, even when they can see, because they’re not used to it. They have to think about what the rest of us take for granted. (Like Oree does.) Are you going to take all of them to task because they don’t fit your idea of what blindness should be like?
Re Hermione taking Harry to task — yes, my mileage varies. Rowling’s treatment of the issue was sufficient to get across to me that Harry was being an insensitive, self-absorbed prick. I didn’t really feel like reading more than she wrote, actually; the book was long enough already.
I agree with you about Rowling’s flawed naming, etc.
So, uh, yeah. Can you see why I didn’t quite take away from that what you specifically, precisely meant? Especially the “when you compare the struggles of any oppressed groups” part?
Yeah, I can see that you took a portion of one sentence out of an entire post comparing Oree’s artistry and magic to geekiness, and ran with it. c.f. my repeated point about disingenuousness. Actually I should use stronger language than that; you’re being intellectually dishonest. In order to draw the conclusion that you did, you had to ignore the entire first and second paragraph of that post. And the fourth (of a four-paragraph post). And the first half of the third paragraph, from which you took the sentence you had a problem with. In other words, you had to take it out of context to make your point.
Thanks for linking it, at least, so that others can go read the whole thing and draw their own conclusions.
As for whether you care about your trustworthiness — well, this whole post does seem to be an attempt at a persuasive argument. Establishing trust, or at least making it clear you’re not talking out of your ass, is necessary for successful persuasion. But despite this being a public post, maybe you’re not really talking to strangers like me. Maybe you’re just talking to your friends, who already trust you? I’m starting to get that impression.
Far be it from me to insist what authors *should* and shouldn’t do. On the other hand, since I gather from your blog that you did want to make a point, the fact that you didn’t make that point very well re: blindness made me think maybe you probably tried a little too hard.
That would be strange, given that I wasn’t trying to make a point re: blindness. Note the other 4.5/5ths of the post.
Now you’re being disingenuous. Many of the major characters have kids; the main trio in particular certainly do (as did, obviously, their parents).
….yeeeees, that would be why I said, “except where there are children to confirm that Sex Happened.”
You’re not actually reading anything I’ve written, are you? You’re skimming, and I think you’re missing stuff by doing so. That’s fine, I’m the first person to admit that I tend to tl;dr — but please don’t complain that I didn’t make a particular point when the problem is that you simply didn’t read it.
What do you think completely desexualizing a gay character constitutes, if not homophobia? Not snarky, an honest question.
I think there’s a vast difference between desexualizing a gay character — in a context in which all the characters are as desexualized as biologically possible — and being homophobic. It would’ve been exceedingly strange for Rowling to mention that D and G did anything more than kiss, since the straight characters never did anything more. Teddy Lupin might as well have been adopted for all the sexuality his parents expressed. And it wasn’t exactly the time to discuss Dumbledore’s kissing technique, what with the protagonist being hunted by magic Nazis, etc.
For the record, I do agree with you on the fact that Rowling failed to support Dumbledore’s sexual orientation in the text. I agree that her portrayal of Dumbledore hits most of the squares on the “cliches/stereotypes of gay men in fiction” bingo card. I also don’t like the timing of how Rowling revealed Dumbledore’s orientation — after book 7 was out and the Bookscan numbers had peaked, when it could no longer hurt her or her publisher. On the other hand, I’ve seen Rowling accused of other forms of bias when the problem was actually something else. So I just want to know what’s making you go directly to homophobia, do not pass Go, do not collect 200 Galleons? How is it not “controversy-phobia” (actually, I doubt it’s that, because she didn’t have to tell the world Dumbledore was gay in the first place)? Or “lawsuit-phobia” if her publisher or the movie studio decided she’d done something “morally questionable” in order to hurt the book’s/film’s sales? (Many author/entertainment contracts contain just such a morality clause, penalizing the author if, say, she does something that sets off the gay-men-are-pedos contingent of Bill O’Reilly’s audience, and triggers a massive boycott.) This is the point that you’re failing to make.
I agree with you about Rowling’s flawed naming, etc.
You don’t have to agree. When it comes to those names in particular, it’s a fact, set in stone, and doesn’t require your agreement in any form.
Even blind people know that blood is red, the ocean is blue, frex, because they’ve spent their lives immersed in the poetry, etc., of sighted people.
?
I’ve never complained that Oree uses sighted people’s language, but that she perceives color perfectly, just as she perceives her paintings perfectly.
They have to think about what the rest of us take for granted. (Like Oree does.) Are you going to take all of them to task because they don’t fit your idea of what blindness should be like?
It’s interesting that you repeatedly accuse me of being disingenuous and intellectually dishonest when you’re running full tilt at a straw man. Speaking of which, have you ever asked blind and disabled people how they feel about the “teehee, she’s sorta disabled but NOT because magiiiick” trope?
But despite this being a public post, maybe you’re not really talking to strangers like me. Maybe you’re just talking to your friends, who already trust you? I’m starting to get that impression.
I’m starting to get the impression that you’re getting passive-aggressive. Since you are here anyway, would you care to inform me in what ways I “gender-policed” your text? Been wondering.
I think there’s a vast difference between desexualizing a gay character — in a context in which all the characters are as desexualized as biologically possible — and being homophobic.
Dumbledore has no sexual desire whatsoever. It’s not that Rowling doesn’t want to specify whether he’s fucked anybody; it’s that she has stated explicitly that after that one incident, he’s become “celibate.” Asexual, even. The straight main characters? Definitely have sexual desires, as is evidenced through and through.
So I just want to know what’s making you go directly to homophobia, do not pass Go, do not collect 200 Galleons? How is it not “controversy-phobia” (actually, I doubt it’s that, because she didn’t have to tell the world Dumbledore was gay in the first place)? Or “lawsuit-phobia” if her publisher or the movie studio decided she’d done something “morally questionable” in order to hurt the book’s/film’s sales?
are you
fucking
serious
really?
[Admin note: I've been following your presence on LJ for a while, and I value your input a great deal, but if you can't comment without dragging other shit into it, please reconsider your comment. Disagreement and debate are fine (as long as it does not incur privileged wankery), but interpersonal conflict has no place here. Once was enough. Note to everyone:Since this person has chosen to disengage from the conversation, please respect that choice and do not pursue further.]
Hated Rowling’s big gay Humdrumblebore reveal. Thoroughly enjoyed this post.
Ta!
I’ve seen him called “Dumb and Dumber.” :p
Great post! The post-book 7 Dumbledore reveal always pissed me off, but I couldn’t put the why into words until relatively recently. It seemed like she was sitting around thinking, “Black character?” “Check.” “Asian character?” “Got it.” “Gay character?” “Oh crap!” And then when people like the OP took JK to task, some were like, “Oh, it’s because you’re the real homophobes.” They didn’t even bother to listen to why other gay people might find Dumbledore’s gayness (as described by the author) problematic.
You forgot one! She threw in an implied goat fucker. That Rowling, a true ally of marginalized people everywhere.
Who was the goat fucker? Aberforth?
Ayup. Something about charms and goats, I think it was?
Who gives a fuck about real gay people?
Thinking about Dumbledore, Tamora Pierce did something similar in her Circle of Magic books. They’re young adult books that centre on 4 students who are taught in a special house on the magic school campus (at least to start with). Their main teachers are two women, who’re ‘best friends’ and share the house with them, and being teachers they are, of course, devoid of any trace of sexuality. In the 9th book of the series, (the same book as Daja, the black girl comes out as a lesbian) just as an aside, it’s revealed that the two women are a couple, Rosethorn’s bisexual, Lark’s a lesbian, they’re not monogomous, and the children have known this all along and it’s not something worthy of much note. Now it’s been years since I’ve actually read the books, I remember being somewhat surprised by this revelation, so I’ve no idea if there was any actual precedence for it or not or if there was any hint of it on the pages before or afterwards. On the plus side, neither of them died a horrible death and they were actually outed on the pages of the book.
If a video game, movie or book doesn’t have any non-white characters, it’s racist. If it does have some, it’s condescending. Therefore, works of fiction must consist mostly or entirely of non-white characters. But if we assume that all ethnicities are equal (you do assume this, don’t you? You’re not a racist, are you?), then we are simply back to square one, as nothing has changed.
But let’s keep in mind that the Western world consists overwhelmingly of white people and is based on European culture, and that writers etc. have a tendency to stick to characters of their own ethnicity and culture (indeed, people even prefer to live among their own ethnicity and culture). It is preposterous to expect video games, movies and books to be filled to the brim with ethnic minorities. They aren’t called minorities for no reason. If you look at, say, Japanese works of fiction, you see even less ethnic diversity, because their society is not ethnically diverse (and because they don’t have political correctness as their state religion). There are no “token” white and black characters. Is it racism, or just art imitating life?
As for gay characters, it’s clearly impossible to please you. If the character’s orientation is treated like it’s nothing, you complain that the writer is being insensitive and ignorant because he doesn’t understand the uniqueness of being gay. If the writer make the character conspicuously gay or otherwise treats its orientation as significant, you would of course complain that the writer is being insensitive and ignorant because it’s like he thinks there’s something unique about homosexuality. You set up a situation where the writer cannot possibly win, just so you can complain ad infinitum for no real reason.
I also wonder why you’re so obsessed with having characters that look like you. Do you just immediately connect with a character who looks like you, but can’t do the same with a character that doesn’t? I’m from northern Europe and as white as they come, but I watch Japanese movies and television almost to the exclusion of everything else. But how can this be? Shouldn’t I be completely turned off by all these characters that don’t look like me and don’t even share my culture or language? What the fuck is wrong with me? Nothing, that’s what. I’m just a normal person with a capacity for empathy who can relate to people who don’t look, talk or act like me and may even have a different set of genitalia (in one of my favorite stories, the protagonist is a 17 year old girl, but we are not all that dissimiliar). You, on the other hand, are a racist who does not see people as individuals, but as tokens (irony alert). To you, they are merely representatives of a race, and have no purpose or meaning beyond that.
“Privileged shitstain, right here.”
As we all know, anything a character says is always perfectly in line with the author’s own opinions. Also, please don’t pull the “privilege” card when you have unfathomable amounts of privilege compared to, say, children in Darfur, beggars in India or peasants in China, many of whom would literally kill to be in your position. Chances are that your life is easier and more prosperous than mine. While I can’t say I know anything about you specifically, I know a typical feminist blogger is some hipster who spends her days sipping on a latte at Starbucks and holds a strenuous job like web development… or blogging. In other words, you’re the last people who should be complaining about privilege.
Where the hell do you trolls come from?
Seriously, do you even bother to read what this site is about before popping off at the mouth with this ignorant shit?
Wait wait wait.
Did your privilege-denying, straight white male ass seriously step onto a progressive minority-centric website and make sexist, racist, and homophobic attacks against women, people of color and LGBTQs, all in a single comment, all the while using the fact that you watch Japanese media as an excuse as to why you’re not a bigot?
*Points and laughs at you*
Damn, that’s some wizard level trolling right there. I’ll give you that.
Aww lookie, the troll thinks someone cares about his ~opinions.
No, no, no. You seem to be mistaking weeabooto mean “broadminded proponent of ethnic diversity”.
Also? My friends in web development work 20-hour days. They just happen to make a lot of money for their hours. And whatever privileges they have? They pay for.
Just saying.
First rule of writing an essay: Don’t state an author’s intent. You don’t know what it is. So, for example, you cannot make claims on J. K. Rowling’s feelings towards buttsex unless you either a) are her or b) have approached her and asked her exactly what they are.
Thank you for your assumptions making the world an even more judgemental place to live in.
I’m getting real tired of you trolls coming here and derailing my entire fucking blog.
ETA: Just in case you didn’t catch it the first time you read about what the fuck is going on here (because you DID read that, right?):
So you can take your first rule of essay writing and shove it.
Yours cordially,
HBIC
As someone who’s not read Harry Potter, who knows Dumbledore only from the movies, and has only kept half an eye on the whole Dumbledore outing thing, J.K. Rowling’s words hit a sore point.
It’s okay to be gay as long as you don’t physically consumate your relationship. It’s okay to be gay as long as you aren’t public about it. It’s okay to be gay if you spend your entire life celibate.
Those are the sorts of messages that are everywhere. You can be gay on TV as long as you’re sexless. It’s the act that’s the sin not the person and all that sort of thing.
So JK Rowling emphasised that point in regards to Dumbledore. He was gay, but it’s okay, he might not have had sex.
Have you read the linked to article which goes into further details about the unfortunate implications of what JK Rowling’s stating?
Now, personally, I’m willing to believe the best in most people. I think that quite likely she just didn’t think it through.
But when you’re the author of such a popular series of books. When you have the level of influence that she has there’s some responsibility there.
You’re right we don’t know JK Rowling’s attitutudes to buttsex. For all we know she might enjoy it very much.
But from her statements she is reinforcing crap that people have to deal with every day.
Thank you for your assumptions making the world an even more judgemental place to live in.
What does this even mean in this context.
@Evalice
As someone who is a huge fan of Rowling’s and supports Dumbledore’s outing (and this isn’t to say others dont have legit concerns because they do), let me stress that you’re not helping your case with this essay nonsense so please take the bench and sitcho ass down.
Okay I’m curious. What’s the other side of the argument about Dumbledore? I’ve read the bad. I’ve read the linked. I’ve read a few things that say it was hinted at in the text.
Here’s my take on the Dumbledore situation.
But before I answer this, let me stress a few things:
- I speak only for myself. And this is my opinion and my perspective. The next person’s mileage may vary for equal and valid reasons.
-In no way am I dismissing, negating, or refuting the points raised throughout this post or in the comments. I’ve found said points to often be valid, thought provoking and intelligent, even if I have a different school of thought on the issue. So I do thank people for sharing their viewpoints.
-I’m not looking to change anyone’s opinions. So if you feel differently, that’s cool. I’m not saying you’re wrong. Because I respect other perspectives on this. In fact on many levels I feel where you’re coming from. That said, I’m not looking to debate or argue my viewpoint.
-I’m not looking to get attacked or jumped by anybody, so please, DON’T TASE ME BRO!
Like most peeps, I loved the Harry Potter stories and I loved the universe. While reading one of the things I pondered on was wouldn’t it be cool to have a gay character in the story. To show that even in this magical world of innocence and escapism, we can exist here as well.
So when Rowling outed Dumbledore, it brought a smile to my face.
The truth is, the way she revealed Dumbledore was a smart play and a pragmatic one imho. Because the way she outed him is the same tactic I’ve used countless times in my life, when it comes to choosing when to disclose my orientation.
When people know initially that you’re an LGBTQ, they come in with a world load of assumptions about you. They think you’re aspiring to be a cis straight woman’s fabulous fashion accessory, their honorary girlfriend, that you spend all day pining after straight guys and bunch of other heterosexist crap.
When I work a job or am introduced into a new environment, most people assume I’m straight. I let them get to know me. Know what I’m about and learn that I’m a three-dimensional human being. Yes there’s the racial crap I also have to contend with but for the sake of discussion, I’m taking that out of the equation just for a moment. Basically they learn me as a person first, so when they do find out I’m a gay man, it skull fraks them on world class levels of WTFery.
“You’re an LGBTQ? But you don’t act like what they show on TV. You’re like a human being or something. DOES NOT COMPUTE.”
Now I’m not saying this tactic should be the universal standard or that all LGBTQs should do this or that they shouldn’t be out, but in certain situations, this has been effective for me.
I (and again YMMV) recognized what I felt was the same tactic being used by Rowling. She allowed the audience to fall in love with an amazing and extraordinary character and then revealed that said amazing and extraordinary character just happened to be an LGBTQ.
Now some would argue that she should’ve revealed him sooner and that because Harry Potter is a powerhouse franchise, Rowling has the power to do whatever she wants.
To a certain extent that is true, but to another extent I don’t believe it is and here’s why.
Rowling still answers to a publisher. And let’s not forget this is the same publishing industry that has regularly screwed over POCs and LGBTQs. After all, it’s no random happenstance that there’s a dearth of gay male protagonists in fiction, specifically high profile franchises.
If the publishers and editors had known beforehand, I’m willing to put down money they would’ve had Dumbledore be a villain, die in a mutilated fashion, be flamboyant and fabulous, or turn out to be a bigger threat than Voldemort, or some other sick sadistic homophobic crap.
And as another commenter mentioned, I wouldn’t be surprised if Rowling wasn’t sued for sabotaging her franchise by outing Albus.
And let’s not forget, HP was already catching heat from the religious right for promoting witchcraft and devil worship. What do you think would’ve happened if it had been revealed that HP’s mentor was gay. It then would’ve been that HP promotes pedophilia.
Because speaking as a former educator, I had to stay in the closet because that was the one fear I always had, that if someone knew I was an LGBTQ, inevitably the bogus harassment charges would come pouring in. That I acted inappropriately with a male student by glancing in his direction or breathing the same air that he did.
If we were on a level playing field where it’s easy to have LGBTQs in fiction and actually be done right, I might feel differently but given the dynamics and the issues I know she was dealing with, I think she made a smart play.
It’s like the interracial kiss between Kirk and Uhura from Star Trek TOS. Most of us consider that a win for its time, given the historical and cultural dynamics that were at play at the time. However in this day and age, it wouldn’t fly.
I feel the same way about Dumbledore. Given the dynamics at play, it was a win imho and a good step. But not the end, not even the beginning. By no means does that mean we should stop demanding better or asking for more. To me, Rowling isn’t the issue, it’s the publishers who don’t publish POC and LGBTQ-lead stories.
As a writer who is finishing his YA action fantasy novel with a gay protagonist, I look at Dumbledore as a nice step but inspiration to take the fight to the next level.
Now some people would argue that because it’s not in the text it’s not canon and it doesn’t count. Well…normally I would agree but Harry Potter is a unique creature. For instance while we know in the text that Lupin and Tonks died in the battle of Hogwarts, Rowling explained that they were both killed by Bellatrix and we accept that as canon. Just as we accept as canon when Rowling explains that Angelina Johnson married the surviving Weasley twin and OMG a Weasley married a black girl. So Rowling outing Dumbledore is equally as canon imho.
Now, did Rowling get everything right? No. Of course not. No writer does. Are there areas of opportunities? Absolutely. And those issues should be called out. But for me (and again the next person’s mileage may vary), if it appears that the storyteller is trying to make a good faith effort to be inclusive, call out bigotry, be progressive, etc. I tend to be a bit more forgiving. These storytellers, I can work with.
Now don’t get it twisted, that isn’t to say we shouldn’t call out problematic elements or screwups. Because we should. And no one should get a pass. We should always tell storytellers how to do better. But for me personally (and again I speak only for me), I’m a little more patient if I believe they are trying to do something positive and do it right and may make some well-intentioned missteps as opposed to full on blunder and fail. Intent is not magic (no pun intended) but it does say something. Again, the next person might feel differently and by no means am I telling anyone else how to feel.
But that’s my take on Dumbledore. YMMV.
While I agree with you on the article and the horrible tokenism going on, I immediately assumed Chow was Chinese and that Sookie was just being an idiot for not recognizing triad tattoos when she saw them. (After all, that’s my surname.)
Could be; I wouldn’t trust Sookie (or Harris, even) to be able to distinguish Chinese from Japanese, either.
Thank you so much for this post! You are right on and I want to thank you for posting this.
Have we met online before?
I especially wanted to thank you for your calling out J.K. Rowling on her asexuality fail, concurrent with the “Dumbledore is gay” fail. Asexuality is considerably less visible than other sexual orientations, as you know, so it’s very uncommon that I find (outside of certain asexuality comms, maybe) reviews which mention asexuality and call out asexual fail. It’s even less common that folks (like you) know that romantic asexuals exist and what that means!
I don’t think J.K. Rowling does, for one. One does not become asexual (or any other sexual orientation, for that matter) because of unrequited love! And it’s not believable that a romantic asexual character would not find another romantic partner in 200 years.
The asexuality issue particularly nagged me because of her wording: “become quite asexual,” really? It’s like, gosh, did she wake up one day and decide “ah, self, today I conclude that I prefer to screw dudes exclusively after all!”? I don’t care if this is ad hominem, but the woman’s so deeply, thoroughly clueless.
And it’s not believable that a romantic asexual character would not find another romantic partner in 200 years.
Easily, of course: everyone in the wizarding world, in Rowling’s mind, is heteronormative and sexual. She’s given us one gay character, what more can we ask for, right? :p
I’m Spacehawk on LJ. I don’t think we’ve met. Nice to meet you!
I agree about the cluelessness. If she’d wanted to, she could have created a homo-romantic asexual character (and descriptively, she may have done exactly this, whatever words she uses), though it still leaves open the question of why Dumbledore becomes aromantic for the rest of his life. Romantic asexuals don’t become aromantic because of a bad experience at 18.
So though it doesn’t make things work entirely, saying that Dumbledore was a homo-romantic asexual but it would be a way of explaining that he’s interested in men in a romantic sense but doesn’t experience sexual attraction or isn’t interested in sex.
But to say he’s gay, this doesn’t make sense. Then there’s no explanation why he doesn’t experience sexual attraction. And it opens up the problems that have already been described here. I don’t know where J.K. Rowling’s various points of ignorance lie, but they’re there.
A lot of people are aware of the “gay fail” and have written about it, but very little’s been said about the concurrent “asexuality fail” in J.K. Rowling’s statement, and the invisibility in general of homo-romantic asexuals. If she had something closer to homo-romantic in mind, and had said that instead of “gay”… hm. Not perfect, but it covers the “why there was no sex” issue, without conveying the message that there was no sex because gay sex is scary/bad/etc. It still doesn’t explain the change in his orientation.
And is it me, or is there also a sense that after his gay romantic relationship (with someone evil), his turning away from “evil” is linked to his becoming a good character (and aromantic + celibate?).
Hi, fellow LJer with an animal in the username.
If she weren’t such a painfully sheltered, heteronormative person, I’m sure that a homo-romantic asexual character is what Dumbledore would have been. It wouldn’t have come across as homophobic the way it does as things stand, at that.
Yup, Daniel Hemmens on Ferretbrain brought that up: that all love in HP series is presented as pure, conquering, and powerful–but the one single case of homosexual love, it came very close to turning a man to evil (“made a fool of by love”). So, extrapolating from that, I think Dumbledore’s “becoming” celibate is presented almost as repentance: as someone’s pointed out on my LJ–live in the closet, die in the closet.
Another fun element is this: since just about everyone in the series experiences romance on/off-screen, and a big deal is made over love being the power that the Dark Lord knows not so he knows no platonic love, parental love, or romantic love, it’d appear he’s the only true aromantic in the series. Well played, Rowling.
So, with Dumbledore we have a double fail: the only same sex relationship is “evil” and corrupting, and the one asexual character is “redeemed” by said asexuality.
As for your comment on the Dark Lord as the only “true” aromantic character, I think you’re mischaracterizing aromantic people, who are quite capable of love: platonic, familial, etc. That doesn’t make them any less “truly” aromantic. I’m not sure what your point is there.
Oh, sorry. That’s not quite what I mean–I worded that badly. I’m saying that, in Rowling’s terms, Voldemort is the only true aromantic, much like Dumbledore is “asexual” (i.e. she confuses celibacy with asexuality). It’s piling on the unfortunate implications. So what I should’ve said, and would have if I were typing clearly, would be: “I’m sure that, since a great big deal is made about love being the power that the Dark Lord knows not, Voldemort is Rowling’s idea of what true aromantics are like.”
Hi; i followed your link from the LJ discussion on LKH blogflog group?
you’d been talking about the racism in HP and etc, and you linked, so i came to read [i have read ONE chapter of the first HP, i saw about half the 1st movie]
i see this: “He’s an innately good man, what would make him do that. I didn’t even think it through that way, it just seemed to come to me, I thought ‘I know why he did it, he fell in love”
and i’m thinking – “she asking what would make hime be gay? what does “being GOOD” have to do with being GAY? so he fell in love and that made him gay and that was somehow wrong?”
and then i caught on that, at some point, he did something “bad”, and he did that bad thing for love, because he fell in love with “the big bad”
and… i want to read these books even LESS now! i keep hearing about how LOVE, in these books, is the most powerful thing ever – Dumbledore LOVED the bad guy – how the HELL did that love NOT make the bad guy not a bad guy anymore?
and then the whole “and he then became celibate” [which pisses me off for an ADDITIONAL reason - celibate = vow to marry; CHASTITY = not having sex. he did both, i grant, but she's specifically speaking of whether or not he had sex, and that's CHASTITY!]
so… no. not gonna read them, because it’ll piss me off.
i’ve read the Sookie books, and i have the exact same reaction [except Eric isn't German, he's Nordic. it is different]
i read the books for Eric and Pam [and the Fey, hee!] i can’t stand Sookie [or Bill.] and i watch the show for Pam, Lafayette and sometimes Eric [Lafayette is AWESOME, i was SOOOOOOOOOO pissed when he was killed, SO angry]
but… Oree.
i grant that having a blind person with the Sight is a lot overdone -
but i would LOVE to read about a person in a wheelchair who gets a superpower out of that. hell, i’d love to BE the person who gets a superpower out of it. i hate being disabled, i hate being in the damned wheelchair. i hate the LOOKS, the snide comments, the complaints about ramps and other accessability…
i hate the assumption that i am just a DRAIN on resources – i hate the snide comments about “faking to get Social Security” [which i've been fighting for for 4 years now] and how i don’t DESERVE SS because i’ve “obviously not worked” despite the fact that between age 15 [when i first started working] and age 30 [when my hip was so very damaged, because i was born with displaysia of the hip and it had NEVER been treated in ANY way, so the inside of my hip joint was torn to hell and i had over 70% nerve damage in my right leg] when my leg just QUIT WORKING, the longest i’d gone without a job was 17 days [and those were PLANNED days] and i generally held at least 2, sometimes 3 [and one time 4] jobs at a time, and i’ve PAID for my Social Security. i mean, SS and medicaid are the things that EACH OF US PAYS FOR FOR OURSELVES! every paycheck, i paid for SS and medicaid that i COULD NOT HAVE because i was working – so, now that i’m literally incapable of working, i SHOULD be able to access all that money i paid!
but… people hate. i get more hate from being disabled than i do for being female or for being Cherokee – but i ALSO get a lot more people being randomly nice. people who open doors for me who wouldn’t DREAM of doing it for someone else, etc. the hate is somewhat balanced by the people who try to help [only somewhat - sometimes, it's "look, i'm disabled, not incompetent! go away!" but most people are pretty good at saying "hey, need help?" and helping if i say yes, and graciously NOT helping, or trying to insist, if i say no]
thats what being disabled is like for me.
and the worst thing about it.
the absolute worst thing –
is that i’m ALWAYS being told [by STRANGERS who think they have some RIGHT to do/say whatever the hell] to SMILE! if i make some indication that i have nothing to smile ABOUT, this complete and total strange wil [almost alwaus] launch into a long, tedious and repetitive lecture on how “it could be worse” and i “could be dead ” and “God has plans for you” and “you need to buck up so that other aren’t made uncomfortable by you” and on and on and on and ON! because every disabled person has TWO options – they can be SuperCrip! and be smiling and helpful and always answer every question, no matter how bloody intrusive, while volunteering at a soup kitching and working some great job that ACTUALLY follows all the AMA regulations [hint: i have yet to find a job that DOES, and i have yet to hear of ANY place hiring a person if they have to make new accomodations for them - or they can be EvilCrip! who isn't happy all the time, won't pretend to be, won't waste his/her time answering bloody intrusive/invasive questions about themself, their disability, or their life, doesn't feel like it's HIS/HER job to make sure ALL the non-disabled people know that s/he's disabled and "good" with it, "because disability is a gift from god in disguise" and such bullshit -
or, shorter answer, there's "good crips" who make none disabled people feel good about themselves by pretending that they are *happy* with their lot in life, which relieve the none disabled people from actually having to *DO* anything ["No, really, i don't mind that you continue to refuse to put in a federally required elevator, it's -fun- to crawl up two flights of stairs while dragging my wheelchair]
and there’s “bad crips” who DON’T do the above, who DO demand that reasonable accomdations, as set forth by the ADA, be followed. who demand that people DO THEIR JOBS. who refuse to wait until EVERYONE ELSE is done going to the bathroom, “because you take longer so it’s only fair” leading to waiting for over a HALF HOUR because every new woman who comes in says the SAME thing, and YOU’RE the mean one for pointing out that disabled people need to pee, too, and you’re not waiting any longer, the line is SET and you are going after HER. and then the next girl comes in, and tries to pull the “oh, you’ll be slow and i’ll be quick so it’s ok if i go first?” and you scream “NO! i’ve been hearing that for 30 fucking minutes you WILL wait your godsdamned turn and that is AFTER mine” – and everyone now knows you’re a BADCrip and everyone hates you and they NEVER think “maybe she’s just tired of hearing that 50 gazillion times” or “maybe she’s in a lot of pain” – no, they think “Good! she DESERVES to be in horrible unending pain and stuck in a wheelchair!”
Oree… Oree was something else, and something BETTER – she was a disabled person who wasn’t either completely perfect and nice and after-school special teaching us that disabled people are people too! nor was she a total bitter bitch who’d given up on humanity and milked her disability to get what she wanted -
those are the two main ways disabled people are portrayed. but she was a bit more like a REAL disabled person – she could still, within certain paramaters, maintain herself and take care of herself; she was nice but not syrupy, nice but cautious? nice when she could be but a bitch when it was needed – she wasn’t a pushover; she didn’t like being blind but didn’t let it prevent her from being a WHOLE PERSON, and she didn’t let it stop her from living life -
sooooooooooo many people write this story:
there is a disabled person. this person is sad, and feels both helpless and hopeless, like there is zero point to that person’s life, and zero reason for that person to live. the Hero[ine] of the story is either friends with this disabled person, or meets this disabled person. seeing this disabled person LIVING as disabled makes the Hero[ine] feel better about him/herself – s/he’s NOT disabled, and hey, if this disabled person can do it so can S/HE! Hero[ine] relays this feeling to the disabled person, who then realizes that his/her PURPOSE is to be disabled to show non-disabled people that life can still be lived! [and then i want to die. i obviously hate this trope]
and Oree was NOT that – and Oree was pretty cool on TOP of not being that. so, over all and despite the over-use of the Sight, i like Oree.
Now that you mention it I’ve to also wonder why she felt she needed to bring up Dumbledore’s moral character in juxtaposition with his… sexuality? It doesn’t seem necessary to discuss them together.
[except Eric isn't German, he's Nordic. it is different]
“Germanic” is a category of people/tribes sharing a certain ethnic background and a family of languages originating from northern Europe. They’re people who are today Swedish, German, Finnish, and Anglo–Old English, for example, is a Germanic language.
I’m sorry people are shitty to you.
Society in general is deeply, incredibly ablist and I think it’ll be a long time before this brand of -ism will get better/be less widespread and unthinking.
oh, that’s what you meant by “German” – sorry
yes… i had actually started to consider reading the HP books, when someone just sort of casually told me that a main character was gay.
and then i discovered HOW and WHAT that meant, and i was … not happy.
and this – i really do think she’s trying to imply that being gay was the bit that allowed him to be “swayed” by evil, and because it was “gay love” that’s why he couldn’t “save” “his love” and…
am i reading too much into it?
being disabled sucks for everyone who’s disabled. i don’t know ANYONE who is disabled who isn’t treated at least this bad, and often worse. and i still don’t understand WHY. le sigh
It’s not just you; it also strikes me as very strange that the one non-redeeming love in the series just so happens to be homosexual. I’m already writing Rowling off as homophobe so it’s not a huge stretch.
The why, I think, is a combination of the kid’s tendency to bully and the adult’s conformity (which to a certain extent is much one and the same): us able-bodied people aren’t sure how to react to the disabled/don’t know how to behave around you, so we resort to an extreme reaction–either by overcompensating (treating the disabled like they are incompetent/can’t help themselves at all) or by, well, being giant dicks. Both ways dehumanize, reduce the disabled to… not a person, but a disability, someone to pity, or someone to despise. It’s a pattern that fits a lot of privileged/oppressed relations.
i don’t understand homophobia. i remember, as a kid, wondering exactly WHY Uncle David was kiss his [guy] friend, but it didn’t *bother* me. it was, clearly, THEIR business. [i don't want to come off as some over-enlightened prig - i know i'm damned lucky, raised by people who tolerate EVERYTHING. except our family that is, but that intolerance started with *their* inability to see us kids as anything other than "Apples", so...yeah]
disability; i was long the sole injun in the classroom. it’s a different reaction. i’m not even completely sure it comes from the same place – fear of the other seems to drive racism [and, i suppose, homophobia and "transpanic" and all that BS] whereas “fear of mortality” is what seems to be the instigator for most [not all!] reactions against the disabled.
and i don’t want to seem like it’s everyone, or even MOST people. 99% of the world will at least TRY to be polite [opening a door when i'm wheeling up, moving people facing the other way so i can get thru, etc].
but there are people who just can’t seem to NOT HELP [and it's NOT help, so very often] and i tend to attribute that to guilt, and those respond by being dicks, which i TRY to attribute to fear but really can’t help attributing to them being dicks in general. disabled people are seen as WEAK, and those who prey on, or mock, the weak see us as perfect specimens for their brand of… whatever.
but what you’re saying, i’ve seen that, too – that’s a HELL of a lot easier to deal with than either of the other two “negative” reactions. at least, the non-giant-dick reaction
i note something else – when i was still somewhat self-mobile [walking with a cane] in *general* people were less understanding, but the specific jackass-ery was also less prevalent [the "general" reaction seemed to be "she's using a cane for attention/sympathy/some other means of manipulation" while the reaction a wheelchair seems to be "wow, it's so bad she HAS to use a wheelchair, so it must be really bad, indeed. because NO ONE would use a wheelchair unless they "had" too."
and that's just weird]
*shrug* i’m just throwing out what i’ve been seeing/thinking. it’s only been in the past few years that i’ve had to use the wheelchair, so it’s still pretty new to me.
the one difference between the other “ism” or “phobias” seems to be that it’s okay to HATE people of different color, or orientation, or whatever, but it’s NOT ok to hate the disabled, but it IS okay to express their desire that they never, ever have to see us [and also okay, apparantely, to treat us all like we're mentally handicapped as well as physically so, Steven Hawkings aside]. i think i’d rather go back to being hated, personally. but that’s JUST me.
Do you mind if I quote this in an article I’m writing?
Sure, no problem.
Hey, I thought it was just me who was bothered by the massive amounts of tokenism in the books. You won’t believe how many angry HP fangirls fly into a rage when I give this as one of my reasons for disliking the books. So it’s great to see a website
I mean seriously, it just annoys me how she goes out of her way to give the non-white characters the most STEREOTYPICAL names she can think of, but every major character in the books is white. Why bother?
Being gay myself, the whole outing of Dumbledore bothered me on every level. I am trying to give her the benefit of the doubt, but there are so many unfortunate implications that it makes it difficult. I find it surprising that a woman with such strong left leaning views created such an unintentionally conservative series of books (pretty much all the characters are mostly defined by things they were born with, rather then their own actions, really.)
I have an unfortunate tendency to laugh off blatant tokenism; as in, I see it in almost everything I watch/read, and think it’s ridiculous. I should probably take it more seriously but for me personally it gets exhausting being angry all the time, I laugh more to mock the creator for their utter lack of subtlety than to belittle the importance of the complaint.
I like the point you’re making in general, but I have to say there’s a major flaw in your suggestion that Jo Rowling is homophobic because she fails to explicitly show that Dumbledore has had sex with a man. When someones reply pointed out that this is only because she doesn’t do so for any of her characters, you used their children as clear evidence that they have had sex. Well, do you see the obvious problem there? It’s very easy to show that heterosexuals have had sex because of the product; their kids, but you can’t do that with homosexuals. There’s no physical signs, she’d have had to actually come out and say they had slept together, and as the other poster was saying, she never does that about anyone, whatever sexual orientation. As much as the audience is wide and we are obviously reading it as adults, we mustn’t forget that these are still primarily children’s books, and realistically there’s no way in hell her publishers would have allowed her to talk explicitly about sex. The only way it’s ever addressed is in the sense that characters have had children, or as you said far more in terms of love than actual sex. Yes, it’s true that she never talks about Dumbledore having had sex, but equally, despite the fact that by the time Harry and the people in his year start having girlfriends/boyfriends, they are above the age of legal consent in their country, there is never any suggestion of them having sex, or even having the desire to have sex. You might think that odd for a group of teenagers, specifically as their desire to kiss and hold hands and all of those things IS constantly expressed, and yet not once does intercourse occur to them. I think, based on the evidence in the text, there’s only one reasonable conclusion to be drawn, and that’s that whether because of her personal wishes or that of her publishers, the books don’t talk about sex unless it’s completely unavoidable, i.e, she needs her characters to have children.
That said, I don’t mean to diminish your point at all. It’s very true that as the only definite homosexual character in the text, the fact that sexuality apparently caused him to stray from the path and lose his judgment, driving him to a life of celibacy that is clearly supposed to be the better option, is in itself problematic. I would say that if we’re looking at the character in itself, rather than what he may be perceived to represent, Dumbledore’s celibacy is hardly surprising given that he chose to devote his life to teaching at Hogwarts. It’s implied that all of the staff are pretty much celibate, as they live alone in a boarding school without sexual partners. Personally, I think that in the book itself his celibacy isn’t so much of an issue; it’s just what she said in that particular interview – which implies celibacy was an active choice made due to an unhealthy homosexual relationship – that causes problems. I would offer the defense that actually, Rowling never said he was gay in the books and only ever mentioned it in response to an interviewers questions, so it isn’t as though she actively tried to portray Dumbledore as a beacon for how homosexuals ought to deal with their ‘problem’, as it was for this particular character. But in that case, the fact that there are no openly gay characters becomes an issue in itself…. My point being that I have no argument that the books aren’t problematic, just that, as I said, I don’t believe a lack of explicit reference to sex of any nature can be considered evidence of homophobia in this case.
I don’t think she’s homophobic myself, but I was pretty flabbergasted at her self congratulatory attitude to “outing” Dumbledore. It wasn’t groundbreaking or daring like she or her many fans seem to believe, but another way in the HP books are unintentionally conservative, despite JK’s own beliefs. I also find it amusing how many right-wingers rant and rave about Dumbledore being gay, when he’s actually living exactly how many extreme Christian right-wingers believe homosexuals should live.
She outed Dumbledore long after the books were finished, and created another “tragic” homosexual character who has his heart broken in his youth, chooses a life of celibacy and devotes his entire life to helping heterosexuals with their problems, and dies a sad death, never knowing true love. Of course, his homosexuality was tacked on at the last minute, and no hint was made to it in the books. If she really cared about challenging stereotypes about homosexuals, she would have made a major supporting character gay, or if she was really daring, any of the main trio, and actually made it part of the plot. Considering how every major surviving character ends up married with kids by the end of the books, it’s jarring that the only homosexual character chose a life of celibacy because of a messy romance in his adolescent years. I don’t see Ginny choosing to never love again when one of her first crushes tried to kill her and a ton of muggle borns.
I am trying to give JK Rowling the benefit of the doubt, but her tokenism in the books is really infuriating. No, giving characters the most cartoonishly, stereotypically foreign names (such as calling the asian girl a name that is basically like calling her Ching Chong) but making every important character in the series white is not groundbreaking, it’s lazy at best. Why not make Parvati Patil and Hermione Granger swap roles and personalities in the books, if you care so much? I really have no idea how such a left-leaning woman could make such an unintentionally conservative book.